Curse

Jeydra · Mar 15, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

@Malician - the easiest way to not run out of energy with Searing Flames is to bring Aura of Restoration / Elemental Lord; if you do that then so long as you keep using Glowing Gaze each time it's cooled, and if you use Glyph of Lesser Energy on Searing Flames (twice, preferably), you won't run out of energy even if the team keeps moving. If you can't trust PuGs to manage this without running out of energy, you can ask them to run both Aura of Restoration + Elemental Lord, although it's rather overkill.

If you want to run damage without using AP or Searing Flames ... tough job. You'll be dealing little damage that's for sure. At this point I think going down the utility path is better, so bring stuff like Unsteady Ground / Churning Earth / Blinding Surge / Ward Against Melee, etc. If you still want to run damage, then you're pretty much reduced to Mind Blast, Savannah Heat and Invoke Lightning, none of which are really that good.

Sorry I can't help more, there simply aren't any other options

Quote:

Originally Posted by saitou

Less is more. Make your point once, and with fewer words, and it will be more convincing. I agree with some of your points on the usefulness of water magic, and I can have fun using it (successfully) regardless of how many people agree with me. Those who are designated Advanced experts like the writer of this guide will usually have more people agreeing with them, but that doesn't stop you from playing however you enjoy most.

Verily, if you say you use Water Magic because you enjoy it the most, I'd fully support you using the element. There's nothing stopping you from using whatever you enjoy the most. You can even run empty bars if you want. It's just that if you say you use Water Magic because it's effective, then I'd have to ask you to back up your claim.

PS: If you want to keep a team of novices from wiping, you're far better off running ER Infuse. Believe me, I've tried.

@Winterclaw - what builds do you run? I personally find it hard to imagine a Water bar without at least two snares (Deep Freeze + Ice Spikes), because there aren't any more skills to use.

Tha Dukk · Mar 16, 2010, 02:06 PM // 14:06

So I haven't played GW in a few years. I decide to browse the forums as I reinstall, only to find that my favorite damage dealing class has been reduced to only being useful as a healer? Good god, we really can't compete for damage?

Xenomortis · Mar 16, 2010, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tha Dukk

So I haven't played GW in a few years. I decide to browse the forums as I reinstall, only to find that my favorite damage dealing class has been reduced to only being useful as a healer? Good god, we really can't compete for damage?

An Elementalist has been unable to compete in terms of damage for a very long time. Ever since Hard Mode really, it's just that people didn't realise it as much as they do now.

Tha Dukk · Mar 16, 2010, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I hope healing is as fun and/or easy as my Searing flames build was. Never liked to play monk though.

Winterclaw · Mar 16, 2010, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Jeydra I tend to run:
Shatterstone
Glowing Ice
Ice Spear
Blurred Vision
(optional but usually glyph of restoration or conjure ice)
Water Attunement
Aura of Restoration
Res Chant

I like Ice spear because at 14 fire, rogorts does 155 damage every 10 seconds for 25 energy. Ice spear can do 330 in 8.5 seconds for the same energy cost. Of course this is before armor.

At 100 AL its:
RI = 57 + 42 burning (99) vs IS = 165
At 140 AL its:
RI = 29 +42 burning (71) vs IS = 83

Yes RI's does AoE and is better overall plus you don't have to be at half spell range and you can do other things while the ice guy is spamming, but for energy efficient damage Ice Spear IMO, is one of water's best options.

FoxBat · Mar 16, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

In HM PvE it's hard to see why Mirror of Ice isn't the top water pick. (although trident might be more fun) Just set up a snare/blurred and spam freezing gust for some OKish armor-ignoring damage.

Frozen Ele · Mar 16, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

In HM PvE it's hard to see why Mirror of Ice isn't the top water pick. (although trident might be more fun) Just set up a snare/blurred and spam freezing gust for some OKish armor-ignoring damage.

Mirror of Ice isn't a bad pick, but with the last skill update (increasing energy cost and casting time) the skill doesn't fare as well. Because of the change in energy and duration, Mirror of Ice matches Shatterstone's casting and energy requirements, so depending on the armor of the foe, it could be better to use Shatterstone.

Also, because Mirror of Ice will only do damage to one foe (even if you cast an AoE snare on multiple foes) it isn't nessecarily the most efficient damage-dealer (the skill's effectiveness would increase significantly if it was changed so that Mirror of Ice affected all foes that the snare was cast on). Returning to the Shatterstone argument, since Mirror of Ice would only deal damage to one foe it isn't nessecarily more adventagous to use Mirror of Ice over Shatterstone.

Finally, if Mirror of Ice is used in a long battle, because of some of the energy strains of select snares (15 to 25 energy-costing snares), one can find themselves out of energy rather quickly (unless other energy conservation methods are used, like Glowing Ice, although that takes up a space on one's skill bar, and sometime Glowing Ice might not be enough) and unable to cast each spell as it recharges, namely the high energy strain snares. Instead, if one uses Glyph of Energy or Ether Renewal, there is much better energy management, allowing one to cast each spell as it finishes recharging, likley increasing DPS over a Mirror of Ice equivalent build (see by post with DPS examples and calculations for further reference).

saitou · Mar 23, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Verily, if you say you use Water Magic because you enjoy it the most, I'd fully support you using the element. There's nothing stopping you from using whatever you enjoy the most. You can even run empty bars if you want. It's just that if you say you use Water Magic because it's effective, then I'd have to ask you to back up your claim.

Sub optimal is not the same thing as ineffective. I've had plenty of success in HM with water magic, even if it's not the optimal choice. Why bring this up again 2 months later btw?

P.S. Does anyone actually enjoy running ER Infuse? Casting that frequently makes it hard to do anything else, like move around.

Ariena Najea · Mar 23, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

I'd rather not poke too much into the discussion here, but I noticed that this entire page is pretty much about Water Magic, but Maelstrom hasn't been brought up since the last page. Maelstrom with a snare when aggroing groups works wonders for interrupting initial spells, sometimes a second spell, and further preventing them from casting while they attempt to flee the AoE. There is no better AoE disruption in Guild Wars. If you don't think that's worth 2 skills (Maelstrom + Ice Spikes) in caster-heavy HM areas, you're probably running really lame other builds (that work ofc)

Water Magic in PvE is entirely defensive. While you can do some meh damage, snares are generally only useful for protecting H/H from melee attackers. This is hardly worth devoting an entire player, since YMLAD! is nearly as good, but I'd rather have something with Blind anyways. For player groups (or otherwise when you have a reliable frontliner to "tank") this really isn't useful at all.

Going back to my original point, Maelstrom's only selling point is unrelated in effectiveness to its spec. You can easily use another means to snare (YMLAD+Epidemic as mentioned above) and still get the same effect without devoting a player to Water Magic.

While I enjoy playing Water on my Ele, I've yet to find any build I've run optimal.

Arrogant Bastard · Mar 23, 2010, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I enjoy using ER. Its more challenging to use than most builds in the game.

The only water magic skills I ever use in PvE are Maelstrom and Deep Freeze. The problem with Water and Earth is that most of the useful spells do not need any attributes (Maelstrom, churning earth, eruption).

For damage, fire or AP are better.

SF and SH can do a lot of damage if you have multiple copies (2-3) and can ball up enemies. Outside of scs this can be accomplished with pulling and snaring. You should not simply dismiss the damage potential of fire magic just because one SF or SH ele does terrible damage on their own.

Jeydra · Mar 23, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

@saitou - in that case, I'm going to claim that running empty skill bars is effective. Although I've not seriously used it, I've little doubt that I can vanquish almost all areas in HM with an empty skill bar, not to mention most dungeons. Also yes, I enjoy using ER, but only when necessary (usually prefer to play for damage).

@Ariena Najea - there is comparable AoE disruption actually (BHA + Epidemic, Meteor Shower / Churning Earth, Technobabble ...). Still yes I agree that Maelstrom is one of Water Magic's unique skills, and I'd bring it if I'm using Water. It's just not very effective. Also snares may keep melee away from H/H, but Aegis does the same thing and is much more effective. Not only do you not have to ball enemies, you protect against ranged damage as well.

I generally agree with Arrogant Bastard.

saitou · Mar 24, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@saitou - in that case, I'm going to claim that running empty skill bars is effective. Although I've not seriously used it, I've little doubt that I can vanquish almost all areas in HM with an empty skill bar, not to mention most dungeons. Also yes, I enjoy using ER, but only when necessary (usually prefer to play for damage).

Sub optimal is not the same thing as effective either, which I think we can all agree an empty skill bar is not. My point was that it doesn't make sense to say 'X is better than Y therefore Y is ineffective'. Use optimal if that's the word you really mean.

Jeydra · Mar 24, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Define "effective".

Frozen Ele · Mar 26, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Efficient - adj. productive of desired effects

Optimal - adj. most desirable or satisfactory

(taken from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition)

If one is trying to deal damage, running an empty bar is efficient if the person is wanding the foe to death, but not if that person is just standing there. Similarly, water magic is efficient at dealing damage, but may not be optimal (my post on the 2nd page of this thread is a warrant to this at the very least).

My real question is why this thread was revived.

Ariena Najea - "If you don't think that's worth 2 skills (Maelstrom + Ice Spikes) in caster-heavy HM areas, you're probably running really lame other builds (that work ofc)"

I would suggest bringing Deep Freeze instead of Ice Spikes, since Deep Freeze is more efficient, see my study

Jeydra · Mar 29, 2010, 04:16 PM // 16:16

You got the wrong word - that's "effective", not "efficient", which have very different meanings. And if you call an empty skill bar effective, then I really have nothing more to say.

Otherwise I agree Deep Freeze is better than Ice Spikes, but because Deep Freeze does more damage.

Frozen Ele · Mar 29, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You got the wrong word - that's "effective", not "efficient", which have very different meanings. And if you call an empty skill bar effective, then I really have nothing more to say.

Otherwise I agree Deep Freeze is better than Ice Spikes, but because Deep Freeze does more damage.

My point in defining efficient was to demonstrate that water magic bulds are efficient as well as establish my argument concerning the efficiencies of Ice Spikes and Deep Freeze. In other words, my primary purpose was not to get too involved in saitou's and your discussion, but if you want the definition for effective, here it is:

Effective - adj. producing a decided, decisive, or desired effect
(taken from the same source)

Unfortuately, by definition, wanding a foe with an empty skill bar with the aim of doing damage is effective and efficient, as it provides and produces the desired effect of damage, but is not optimal.

Next, Deep Freeze should be prefered over Ice Spikes for multiple reasons:

Higher efficiency
Larger radius of effect
Longer "round time"
Deals more damage in a single cast (although lesser DPRT - see below)

Lastly, please update your original post. You say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Deep Freeze: an AoE snare. Except why would you need one? In the same vein, Winter’s Embrace is probably the best single-target snare at the moment, but you don’t need it.

Winter's Embrace is not the best single-target snare. It has the worse efficiency out of all water magic snares, both single target and AoE. Furthermore, the damage it deals in necessitated on the fact that the target foe must move, particularly for the duration of the snare. If you are going to argue that foes do not move in PvE, then they would definatly take no damage from this skill. Instead, if you were still focused on the "best" single-target snare (assuming that your definition of "best" denotes that the skill must do damage), it would be between Mind Freeze and Shard Storm. You would probably prefer Shard Storm over Mind Freeze because of Mind Freeze's elite status, requirement that the caster has more energy than the foe, that it causes exhaustion, and that Shard Storm deals more damage, although Mind Freeze has a greater efficiency than Shard Storm. I would argue that based off of the above reasons, Shard Storm is the best single-target snare, by accordance to your definition; Shard Storm would on the majority of cases, deal more damage than Winter's Embrace (especially since Shard Storm has a higher damage per round-time (DPRT) compared to Winter's Embrace, even assuming that Winter's Embrace deals maximum damage: 7.73 DPRT vs. 5.71, respectively and at 15 water magic) and is much more efficient (about 16.5% so than Winter's Embrace). In any case, be it Shard Storm or Mind Freeze [E], Winter's Embrace is not the best single-target snare.

Jeydra · Mar 29, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/efficient

Efficient: performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary.

As for Winter's Embrace, a few things:

1. I made the original post when Winter's Embrace was 5 energy cost and 12s cooldown. Even in its present form I think it's the best multi-purpose snare (which is what I mean by "best").
2. If your aim is to snare a target and keep him snared the best snare is obviously Freezing Gust (cast on a set without HSR).
3. If your aim is to deal damage with a single-target snare then Winter's Embrace is the best. Mind Freeze is elite, causes exhaustion and requires you to have more energy than the target. Not easy / always the case in HM PvE. Shard Storm doesn't ignore armour.
4. Flare has higher damage per round-time (DPRT) than Rodgort's Invocation, but obviously Rodgort's Invocation is the better skill. Why?

Frozen Ele · Mar 30, 2010, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/efficient

Efficient: performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary.

I presented the definition that I held in context to your article and your discussion with saitou. This variance in definitions demonstrates some lack of communication in the discussion and should be revised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for Winter's Embrace, a few things:

1. I made the original post when Winter's Embrace was 5 energy cost and 12s cooldown. Even in its present form I think it's the best multi-purpose snare (which is what I mean by "best").
2. If your aim is to snare a target and keep him snared the best snare is obviously Freezing Gust (cast on a set without HSR).
3. If your aim is to deal damage with a single-target snare then Winter's Embrace is the best. Mind Freeze is elite, causes exhaustion and requires you to have more energy than the target. Not easy / always the case in HM PvE. Shard Storm doesn't ignore armour.
4. Flare has higher damage per round-time (DPRT) than Rodgort's Invocation, but obviously Rodgort's Invocation is the better skill. Why?

1. Regardless of how many skill updates ago you posted your thread, as a guide owner, you should maintain its content and keep it up-to-date and accurate with any skill updates. Also, saying "I think it's the best multi-purpose snare" is pointless because you don't define what a "multipurpose snare" is nor provide evidence that it's the best, rather relying on your opinion.
2. Like I said, based off of your obession with damage I assumed that the best single-target snare must deal damage (which I said in my post). And no, Freezing Gust is not the best snare at keep a target permanently snared, but rather Mind Freeze [E] is, see this study, although because of the energy requirement of Mind Freeze, Freezing Gust might be more practical (but from a purely efficient stand-point, Mind Freeze is best).
3. You keep arguing that foes don't move in HM, to which if they don't move they will take no damage from Winter's Embrace, making it so that any damage, be it 10 damage from Shard Storm, is better than Winter's Embrace. Here, you've trapped yourself with a contradiction: either foes in HM do move or they don't. If they do move, then water magic snares would be effective, whereas if they don't then your argument concerning Winter's Embrace is inherently flawed, causing me to question how much you actially know about water magic, specifically its snares (this study might help)
4. Hmmm, Rodgort's provides burning, is AoE, provides spike damage (which is another reason to prefer Shard Storm over Winter's Embrace), allows one to cast other spells during its recharge (unlike Flare) so you don't have to spam the skill (and can use other skills in the meantime), should I continue? Also, the DPRT for Flare at 15 fire magic is 37.14 (Flare DPRT is subjected to afercast delay) while when burning is factored in, Rodgort's in 14.72, meaning should Rodgort's hit more than a two foes, it has a greater DPRT than Flare, which with an area of "nearby" foes, wouldn't be too hard to do in most circumstances.

Jeydra · Mar 30, 2010, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

1. Regardless of how many skill updates ago you posted your thread, as a guide owner, you should maintain its content and keep it up-to-date and accurate with any skill updates. Also, saying "I think it's the best multi-purpose snare" is pointless because you don't define what a "multipurpose snare" is nor provide evidence that it's the best, rather relying on your opinion.
2. Like I said, based off of your obession with damage I assumed that the best single-target snare must deal damage (which I said in my post). And no, Freezing Gust is not the best snare at keep a target permanently snared, but rather Mind Freeze [E] is, see this study, although because of the energy requirement of Mind Freeze, Freezing Gust might be more practical (but from a purely efficient stand-point, Mind Freeze is best).
3. You keep arguing that foes don't move in HM, to which if they don't move they will take no damage from Winter's Embrace, making it so that any damage, be it 10 damage from Shard Storm, is better than Winter's Embrace. Here, you've trapped yourself with a contradiction: either foes in HM do move or they don't. If they do move, then water magic snares would be effective, whereas if they don't then your argument concerning Winter's Embrace is inherently flawed, causing me to question how much you actially know about water magic, specifically its snares (this study might help)
4. Hmmm, Rodgort's provides burning, is AoE, provides spike damage (which is another reason to prefer Shard Storm over Winter's Embrace), allows one to cast other spells during its recharge (unlike Flare) so you don't have to spam the skill (and can use other skills in the meantime), should I continue? Also, the DPRT for Flare at 15 fire magic is 37.14 (Flare DPRT is subjected to afercast delay) while when burning is factored in, Rodgort's in 14.72, meaning should Rodgort's hit more than a two foes, it has a greater DPRT than Flare, which with an area of "nearby" foes, wouldn't be too hard to do in most circumstances.

1. Come to think of it, I think I'll ammend that sentence to "YMLAD! is clearly the best single-target snare in the game". It even has the added bonus of dealing major armour-ignoring damage, and thus not be useless when you don't need it for the snare. Another strike against Water Magic.

2. I've tried to avoid commenting on your study directly, but since you're basically forcing me to, I'll do it. I base my opinions off practical results, not what mathematics may say. In thise case Freezing Gust is clearly the best non-PvE-skill snare in the game if all you care about is the snare. Mind Freeze may last longer etc but it causes exhaustion, you can't maintain it nearly as well and it gimps the rest of your build. End of story. You have to improve your study. Remember what science in general is supposed to do: it should replicate practice. When a model fails to do it, you improve it, not force real life to conform.

3. I haven't argued that foes don't move in HM. In fact if foes don't move in HM Churning Earth is pretty much useless, except I have listed Churning Earth as one of the notable Earth skills, haven't I? What I have said is that (most of the time) you don't need snares in PvE. That's because you don't care if the monsters move or not. I'll concede that I haven't used Water Magic much in PvE, but that's more of a case that I tried it and concluded it's not worth putting effort into. You'll recall I tried one of your builds against Rotscale and wasn't impressed, too.

4. If you failed to grasp the point behind the question, let me try again. Flare does more damage per round time than Immolate (even if you factor in Burning), yet Immolate is the better skill. Why? HINT: You've already hit on the reason why in your post. The same reason tells you why DPRT, as you call it, is utterly insignificant in practice. You can exhibit it as a mathematical curiousity and say it proves that Meteor Shower is a useless spell because its DPRT is so miniscule, except you would be completely wrong.

By the way since you're such a big Water magic fan, I'll say again what I originally wrote in the guide, more evocatively:

If you can come up with a specific build in a specific area with a specific teambuild where running a Water Magic-based build is superior to any other alternative you may have as an Elementalist primary, assuming reasonably competent players and non-farming purposes, show me. If you do, I promise to try it, and if it works I'll not call Water Magic useless. Until you can though, I'll continue to assert that Water Magic is useless.

Life Bringing · Mar 30, 2010, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Water magic is bad. Face the facts and quit bitching. There is nothing worth doing that water does better than another element. I have no idea why you would need to snare something in general pve, as it's largely unnecessary. The only exception would be shit like doa, but that uses deep freeze without a spec, so it doesn't count in the favor of running a water build. If you need it for wards, urdoinitwrong. If you're trying to exceed the damage done by earth/fire/air with water, urdoinitwrong.

I really can't figure out why you're so set on defending water magic.